Cyclura

Hello,
first of all hello to all... (3 of us).
I was recently able to find a purchaser of so-called Ctenosaura melanosterna.
I have asked for some pictures of these semi-adult animals, and today I received two pictures.
I am wondering if these are really C. melanosterna youngsters and not C. palearis, what I guess.
Can anybody help?

Best regards,
Daniel

Hallo,

If you dont know the origin country of the animals (or the parents) it is hard to say at this age.
There a many hybrids in the trade.
Are these animals wildcought or captive bred ? For me it looks like palearis.
I know that a large group of palearis has been imported by a large reptile wholesaler.

greetings
sj

Hello Jürgen,
thanks for your quick reply. Though I guess we´re both able to speak German, I think we should try to improve our English in this English speaking board, shouldn´t we?

Well, unfortunately I don´t know the origin.
The animals are offered by Thomas Müller and Thomas Ringwald, better known as the owners of Tropicfauna. Do you think of the same wholesaler?
From the first photos on their homepage, I was very upset, because I was extremely longterm searching for C. melanosterna. But the photos made me doubting. They likely are C. palearis...
I still could kick myself in the a... that I didn´t pick the chance in March 2008 Hamm fair to buy Dutch CB C. melanosterna...

Best regards,
Daniel

Hello,

the wholesaler told me they are from Nicaragua...

Best regards,
Daniel

Hello,
the pictures on the website of tropicfaune are C.palearis. I am sure that all C. palearis that are actually offered are from the same import (wholesaler).

Compare these pictures:

http://www.tropicfauna.de/bilder/artikel/ctenosaura.m.001.jpg

http://www.westcoastiguana.com/images/palearismale.jpg

Both species does not exist in Nicaragua, but this is the only country that still allows an export (they call them farm rised?)
C. Palearis is from Rio Motagua Valley in Guatemala.
C.melanosterna: Rio Aguan Valley and on Hog Island (Isla de Cayos Cochinos) Honduras.

Both species are protected now and are no longer exported, so keep an eye on them !
Actually they are not listed at Cites, but the Cites status for the Ctenosaura specie will change soon (next Cites conference)!

regards
Jürgen

Hello Jürgen,

yeah, thanks for your information.
Indeed there is no chance to get either C. palearis or C. melanosterna from their original country. Mark Malfatti from Westcoastiguana told me, too, that it are no C. melanosterna ,which Tropicfauna tries to sell. Mark told further, that there are probable smuggling animals on the market.
The C. melanosterna I could have bought in Hamm were CB from Rotterdam Zoo, so maybe there will be a little chance in the future.

Best regards,
Daniel

@Daniel
at what age are the C.melanosterna CBs from Rotterdam? Heard from R-Dam Zoo that their couple stopped laying eggs a couple of years ago.



Cheers
Karsten

If you like to have offspring C. melanosterna, I know a few adresses who breed succesfull with them.
But keep in mind, that these melanosterna are registered in the studbooks.

hi Willem, nice to see you here.. Do you have offspring with your melanosternas this year?

No, I have seperated them for a while now.. They really didn't look at eachother. So I'm keeping them seperated now.

Hello Karsten,

as far as I remember the CB were offspring of at least one Rotterdam Zoo animal and one parental animal from a private person, Michael or Michel Eigeman (something like this).


Cheers,
Daniel

@daniel
you should ask Henk Zwartepoorte from RDam Zoo to be sure of the origin of the offspring.

Cheers
Karsten

Hello Daniel

I am Tom Greb from the US. Yes those are most definately palearis. They are still imported here into the US in large numbers even though they are not supposed to be anymore. They originate from Guatamala but I believe are smuggled into a neighbering country then exported.

I will try to post pics of melanosterna when I get home. As some one stated there are a couple Dutch breeders but they are studbook animals and it is limited of what they want you to do with them. We have produced many pure melanosterna here in the states this year. As Karsten said the Rotterdam Zoo has not bred them in at least a couple years. I believe they got new animals now and will start working with them again. We hatched out a few dozen ourselves. If you are interested we can export just let me know in private e-mail. chuckwalla@bignet.net. Keep in mind though although the price of the animals is not that bad it is very expensive to export but with the falling value of the american dollar it might not be a bad value. We also produce many C. hemilopha conspicuosa which is another beautiful medium sized cteno.

Anyway I am glad to be on the forum and to be conversing with other cteno fanciers.

Thank you also for the English speaking forum!

Kindest
Tom Greb

Hi Tom,
congrats for tha success, can we see some pics of your melanosterna and conspicuosa babies and maybe parents ?
Greetings Juergen

Kindest
Tom

Another try

[img=http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/5753/dsc01792g.th.jpg]

Tom

Kindest
Tom

Hi Tom,
nice to see you here. Saw allready that Tom offers melanosterna offspring this year. Congrats on your breeding success.. Couple of years ago lots of melanosterna CBs have been arround in Europe (specially in NL and D), at the end of the day with minor success since nobody wanted those animals.. How is the situation in the US? Are there actually many breeders working with them or not because there is no market?

Hi Karsten

Very glad to be here. I really think because of climate her in Michigan etc that I have more in common with a lot of the European breeders that the US guys. LOL. I see all familiar faces here. I am happy also the forum is in English. I tried to learn a little German on my own but it is a very difficult language.

Yes I have heard that in Europe many stopped beeding ctenosaura because they make such poor "pets" and there was no outlet for the animals. I know many of the the Dutch breeders like Diana Stienen, Rene Gaal and of course Henk at the zoo. Now actually I think Rene donated his breeders to Rotterdam and is raising up new animals. Some of our animals her actually we imported from Diana. I do think though after their initial success they have not been so lucky lately. I believe both Diana and Ren have lost many eggs.

We have about 5 or so good breeders of melanosterna here in the US. Mostly in Florida and Arizona where the animals can be kept outdoors in large enclosures for most if not all the year. I think between all of us we will produce maybe 100-125 animals this year but yes they are not well sought after and I think that is even too many animals. I turned all mine over to Bob Blome in AZ because without a lot of room and many spare cages I think that melanosterna can be very troublesome. Most rather kill one another than look at each other I think. LOL. Even the females.

Conspicuosa on the other hand are a lot less of a problem in that respect. You can keep 1.2 in a rather small enclosure with no problems from my experience.

I do see more alfredschmidti and defensor now coming into the US(from Europe) and I believe because of their small size and nice colors they will be more popular. They are still very expenisive though and are only being kept by very serious breeders or the rich. So my plan is to get out of the larger species and when money permits gets into the dwarfs. I have pretty much cut my collection down from melanosterna, pectinata, conspicuosa, Sauromalus varius and hispidus to only Sauromalus ater and a few of the smaller Uromastyx species. I hope that by next year to expand to alfredschmidti and maybe defensor. As you probably herad though the economy is very poor here especially in MIchigan as we were the AUto capital of the world and maybe not so much anymore. And working in that industry I have had to lower my expections on the animals a bit. LOL. So we will see how it goes.

Nice chatting with you. I hope we can keep open the lines of communication through this forum. It is very enjoyable.

Kindest
Tom